How to tell the story of Honour?

Question

How should I introduce honour to the world in a way which people will find fun, engaging, and simple?

Background Context

I’ve built a few things in crypto and have always struggled with getting the message out.

My approach has been to try and write “simple” explainers, but the net result is that they come off as too amateurish for the ‘experts’ who might otherwise read a ‘proper’ paper, and yet they’re still too domain-specific for the mythical ‘ordinary’ person to engage with.

In that past, I’ve been ideologically against marketing and PR of most kinds. I now see that it has its place and I acknowledge that it is part of the infinite game in which I can improve. I just don’t really know where to start.

Playing with it in Kernel seems like a good idea: we have a community here with the necessary context to begin it well.

I’d love to understand where else I should be looking and who I should be talking to?

Links

Goerli - lmk if you need goerli ETH.

Code
Paper

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Work Done So Far

  1. I have sent various people the link directly: that has worked well and tended to garner responses in the doc and some discussion with those particular people. Sometimes requires a follow up or three, but that is to be expected.
  2. I’ve tried sharing the links in both the Zuzalu and Summer of Protocols discord channels. Deafening silence. One mistake I made was sharing them on Friday evening - silly. But yeah, surprising that non-one in those communities has enough interest. It must be more than timing, and I’m struggling to figure out why those initial social outreaches just missed the mark so badly…
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Hi Andy!

Is there a way we can think about playing with honour as a means to an end (to some vague ‘end’ which i don’t really mean is an end)? rather than an end in and of itself?

for example, i mean in the way we frame it. rather than asking people, ‘hey, can you test this and let me know what you think?’ - is there a way we can make it part of a broader infinite game in which it lives, and playing with honour is one small, integral part of it that drives community engagement and traction?

what about integrating it into something like research clinic (just an example)? to incentivize people to peer support each other and forgive HON? i know it’s early on and in this phase we risk making the event entirely about HON, to navigate, set up the wallet and make the transactions. but it’s possible there’s a new type of ritual we could think about which would fit nicely with HON.

is there a vaster ritual, activity, game here? i think once the use of honour is set into motion in such a ‘no brainer way’ - where people don’t have to think about using it - they use it because they entered a space in which it is required/sensible for navigating that space - that is how we potentially generate free advertising by word of mouth - because it lives on its own and speaks for itself.

or maybe i’m entirely wrong and we could consult Jess Sun who has a background in marketing and a penchant for web3 and your writings in the Kernel syllabus :).

-Aliya

Hello :heart:

Yeah, meaningful play which keeps people coming back in various different contexts until they have seen it enough times from many angles that it sinks in how this can be a useful form of money is definitely the goal.

What do you think would make for an optimal flow in the beginning of Research Clinic @aliyajypsy? Like, how would that ideally work for you as someone coming in to the event with no context?

I think that asking Jess and Ben Percifield is definitely on the list of things to do. I am hoping to gather just a little more feedback and hopefully use that to decide which network to deploy this on outside of the current “test” environment.

This is an important and difficult decision. Do we use Ethereum mainnet (it can be more expensive at times of high use, but there are more people there and no need to bridge ETH anywhere/add further complexity)? Or do we use Optimism (getting ETH on optimism to pay for gas can be a challenge, is another step for people to figure out, but can also be cheaper, and the Optimism community is smaller and more likely to respond well and in the kind of coordinated fashion required to really spark the flame here).

Or do we use Optimism (getting ETH on optimism to pay for gas can be a challenge, is another step for people to figure out, but can also be cheaper, and the Optimism community is smaller and more likely to respond well and in the kind of coordinated fashion required to really spark the flame here).

I think Optimism is worth the tradeoff to learn with, play with, and in efforts to continue the games they’ve begun with a) Ethereum’s base layer and b) supporting public goods projects. We also know skating towards the low-fee future is what is needed for Honour’s long-term, playful use case (as well as many other playful use cases in web3).

This might give us an excuse to work with other projects we know have bridged to Optimism (other RetroPGF grantees, Mirror users, and others). I do feel they’ll help with the flame sparking, especially with Zain & Harper at OP Labs (Kernel Fellows) willing to play with us in different capacities, within reasonable constraints.

Perhaps after a call with Jess/Ben/anyone else (I might nominate Alanah Lam), happy to message them with our latest thinking / we can send them this thread.

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I double tap on the tradeoff being worth it to move forward with Optimism! We can create a demo video showing folks how to put ETH on Optimism to pay for gas? I volunteer myself for the demo, since I’m very entry-level! it could be of Andy walking me through it once, then me trying it on my own once?

What do you think would make for an optimal flow in the beginning of Research Clinic @aliyajypsy? Like, how would that ideally work for you as someone coming in to the event with no context?

Hm, I guess first it requires more thought on a legitimate use case for honour. It is a peer to peer system of social credit. Who would want to use a system of social credit and why? What would be the intrinsic motivation there? Once deciding to participate in the game of social credit, one is incentivized to:

to transact often with a diversity of people, as the richer your transaction history, the easier it is to establish lasting trust. Using HON will help you learn about the interplay between balance and history in order to cultivate meaningful, valuable kinds of trust with and in other people.

This key learning aspect, ‘learn about the interplay between balance and history in order to cultivate meaningful, valuable kinds of trust with and in other people’ seems to be a demonstrable and beautiful component to accompany a syllabus module that drives the theme home, a game to play with and grow that models lessons from the reading. What are your thoughts on integrating it there?

As for testing user behavior, thoughts, and reactions, maybe it is sensible to share and play with in a WIP Wednesday session? Maybe one session Salim takes over facilitation so you can actively participate, share, and hear listeners’ impressions. I guess at the moment I’m not sure how I would imagine it unfolding at a research clinic session, because I am confused myself why we would be motivated to use it after I learned to use it with you yesterday. Philosophically it’s a very compelling concept, I think I may need to understand the practical use more though to grasp it stronger.

Good question. I hope that one answer is “you and me”. When I need something, money is brought into existence as a record of that need being satisfied. When I serve another or provide a good, money is forgiven out of existence. This means no runaway accumulation, and no exclusion (based on historical circumstances, class, race, gender, belief, orientation etc.).

In other words, there are clear systemic reasons to use Honour, but we need to make the personal case clear in as many ways as possible.

Here are two hacks I’d like to try before deploying this on a less “testy” domain.

  1. A simple api in the app that will propose you take on however many HON, based on the number passed in the url. That is, goerli.honour.kernel.community/1 propsoses 1 HON to the connected wallet, /2 proposes 2 HON etc. Up to say 20 HON (maybe more, not sure?)
  2. You must accept 1 HON in order to record your RSVP to this event on convo.

These two changes would make beginning to play with it quite a bit easier. Though they do depersonalise your first interaction also, which is not fully in line with the original vision. I love that people have to talk to each other and scan a QR or whatever, to get it to work with them - that kind of human interaction, figuring stuff out together, is a part of what I hope HON will cultivate

I have thought about this… Another interesting hack would be to token-gate the Money & Speech lesson in Module 2: you need to connect your wallet and accept 1 HON before being able to read it… That could be really fun and is quite a simple hack given that we already have some (now old) code required for wallet connections + gatsby (our website framework) at least.

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what do you think about not releasing the module until a certain number/percentage of the people reading the syllabus at that time transacted with each other using HON? it wouldn’t be a requirement at the individual level, but at the collective level? those who figured it out would be motivated to help those who haven’t figured it out to 1) to be altruistic and/or 2) to unlock the module. or maybe this is what you implied since to accept 1 HON you must interact with another…but let’s say there are ~100 people reading the syllabus, only unlocking the next module when 50-60 have accepted 1 HON, or when 30-40% of users have a trust score higher than x. i’m picking arbitrary numbers. i wonder how your maths-inclined brain thinks of such ideas!

Where would you like to see Honour by the end of the summer? What’s the next ridge you’d like to hit on this climb?

I see a golden thread here in your marketing explorations that I think if we pull, might become a nice Kernel Question for you.(That said, I’d like to offer you a clinic session on this, particularly since I have some product launch experience and I’m interested in learning web3 marketing. Stewards should get to clinic too :slight_smile: )

I’m also glad you’ve brought some attention back to Honour, and I’d still love to roll up my sleeves and help make it with you.

To start pulling the thread:

A lot of people find marketing banal, disingenuous or worse – but at this stage of a project, I find Money, in many ways, keeps us honest. Before you have the attention of the people you’re trying to help, marketing is a honing exercise in humility, empathy, and service.

Service, because we can adjust our concept and focus our effort on who sees enough value.

Empathy, because we must learn enough about people’s busy lives to know if what we’re doing makes the cut for them.

Humility, because we developing marketing teaches us where our amazing ideas might actually be irrelevant. And to succeed with new ideas, we have to learn from the skeletons on our path rather than plod on with hubris.

I think your deep, innate will to serve can make you a great marketer. It’s that willing to serve that becomes a willingness to ask, how can I serve you? You know I love the idea of Honour too, but it’s conceptually foreign to everyone. Their internal maps of their economic needs are going to the hardest part of the puzzle. So I think your willingness to serve needs to lead to you to “meet them where they are, not where you want them to be”. This means finding specific groups with specific contexts where Honour can serve them. It’s not so much an intellectual exercise as it is a long walk along the Ganges.

Since you’re part of those communities, you have a precious chance to casually ask them if they saw it or not, and if they did, you have a chance to understand why they didn’t respond. I’d use these answers to hone my attention. Is this an appropriate target audience? Does this meet a need of theirs that they perceive themselves and are actively making time to investigate? If so, am I reaching them in a way that’s congruent with their arbitrary expectations and standards for whatever this does for them?

There’s a concept of “premature scale” that I worry about here Most people new to marketing consider it to be mainly about broad awareness generation, banging drums, but really that’s a surface effect. It’s about finding the right people, and making sure that once you have their attention (“top of funnel”) that they will resonate enough to try (“convert”) and that we’ll be able to serve them so well that they stay (“retention”). The marketing terminology is cold and militaristic, but the principles are about empathy, humility and service. When they don’t do these things, especially at this early stage, it’s not about what we’re broadcasting, but if we’re listening to that “deafening silence” because that’s them communicating. In marketing terms, we build funnels “bottom-up” meaning that we start with finding who we can serve best, making sure we’re able to do it well enough for them to stick around, and then working our way up from there to how to describe what we do, and where to find similar people.

With the hacks you’re thinking about, I see some implicit targeting assumptions. The simple API targets devs, and asks “is the web3 interface a significant barrier to adoption?” Have you had feedback from web3 or web2 devs that indicates this? The convo hack asks, will people follow these strange steps in order to RSVP to an event they want to go to? I don’t think either of these focus on the bigger question – what will make people want to try this?

Back to humility, I think one of the hardest things to learn is to say “I don’t know” when that’s the case. That flips unknowns into questions. We don’t even need to have the answers within Kernel, just the pointers to useful analogs to investigate.

John Mullins helped a lot of new ideas get off the ground with his concept of Analogs, which was summarised well here:

Analogs are useful because it’s likely that whatever it is you’re doing has been been done before to some extent so you can use what other people have learned to formulate your own plan. This saves you time and resources because you can essentially borrow or steal approaches that have been proven to work or can serve as models for what you want to achieve. Many entrepreneurs have attempted or been successful with aspects of whatever enterprise you’re launching so why not learn from them and take advantage of their experience. Mullins and Komisar advise: “whatever you, don’t start from scratch.” A key examples in the book is Apple’s transition from PC hardware and software to consumer electronics and music distribution. Analogs for Apple were the Sony Walkman, the Rio and Napster.

Looking to previous failures and contrasting approaches is an instructive way to construct your approach. Antilogs can provide useful counterpoints or signposts for lurking danger. Antilogs and analogs help you avoid re-inventing the wheel and leapfrog into the next set of questions and uncertainties. Mixing and matching the best from those who came before you can give you the best of both worlds.

So we could frame Honour analogs in a few ways:

  • Introducing novel point systems in games (this is kinda like a point system, and there must be some games we can learn from)
  • Are there any ARGs that had viral mechanics? (this is kinda like a layered game on real life, with a viral mechanic: any product that causes new customers to sign up as a necessary side-effect of existing customers’ normal usage)
  • Are there any defi protocols with some similarities in pricing effort? (What can be learned from Praise? Coordinape? Tip Party? )
  • How do web3 projects launch without scarcity? (Any open NFT collections that tried to launch without the fomo power of artificial scarcity?)
  • How have different defi protocols nestled their way in or found their happy corner? What shapes did their “wedges” take?

Would this “I don’t know” frame a useful Kernel Question for you that we can explore together? I can imagine picking 3-5 analogs from the above questions, and exploring these communities over the coming months. I’d expect that to surface more grounded hypothesis on who Honour might serve best at first, and how to reach them. I’d suggest we start with asking a few other fellows if they can think of any analogs, then “safariing” those communities to see how people described them (warts and all) and to keep us real, going to the founders and designers to ask them what really worked and didn’t.

This is only a suggestion – as you read this, does this feel like it pulls you in and fills you with intrigue? If yes, let’s do it. If not, I’ve missed the mark! If that’s so, please help me understand why :wink: Maybe we could then back up to your broader goals and orient from there.

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“100 happy users” sounds like an awesome goal. In general: at least 3 different “contexts” in which people interact with and see Honour as useful (token gating, event attendance, game play).

This is getting to the heart of it. Finding specific, small groups which can help us find the 100 happy users and make them each happy, 1 by 1, sounds like an excellent plan.

This is exactly on the mark. What will make people want to try Honour? I don’t know. Come for the curious inversion, stay for the community? It smells like communal credit, but scales in strange loops?

That thought leads me to specific feedback so far from Zuzalu/Summer of Protocols. Community currency/social credit people are initially interested, but then it’s not like any social credit/comm currency they’ve ever seen, sounds too simplistic (not simple - discernment is an issue here), and I can often see the exact moment they dismiss it as just another harebrained scheme. Summer of Protocols is likely not the right community: they want to see academic and intellectual work which sounds convincing on twitter and elsewhere, rather than actual implementations. It seems that a lot of people there prefer to stay in the abstract (or are just more used to it when talking about making new monies and protocols). This is a pattern I have picked up across the board so far: people don’t expect me to have implemented anything and often won’t suspend disbelief long enough to even look at the app, let alone really interact with it. One Resource person actively became less interested once I pulled out my phone to show him what I was talking about: it’s almost as if they have too much prior context and can’t see what’s interesting and different about Honour. That interaction was made more awkward by the fact that we were both on mobile and he had to find a wallet with a browser, which led to long delays and lots of room for distraction as other people walked past etc.

The simple API is about more than devs. When talking to people and showing them the app, I have to get them to send me their address, then go to the website, propose HON to them, and then tell them to load the website. On mobile, this is especially painful. I’m hopeful we can make that first initial step slightly more seamless, but admit that this is half-baked at best.

Novel points systems and ARG viral mechanics are interesting analogs. Let’s follow that thread with Paul.

Can you say more about “pricing effort” and what you really mean by that + how it applies in your mind to Honour?

I have collected some NFT projects here but none that truly answer your question. dievardump would be a good person to ask.

I would love to think of good enough analogs together. I don’t know enough about games with novel points systems, but that seems like the most fertile direction to me at first.

What would a viral mechanic look like in Honour?

Tip Party is likely an antilog given they shut it down, but that is also very useful. I’ll reach out to Austin to discuss. The same goes for Cred. In general (and this also applies to Praise and Coordinape) I am suspicious that these approaches are not credibly neutral enough, and assume various things about social dynamics, relationships and interactions which actually prevent adoption. I’d be happy to invalidate that hypothesis though.

In general, awesome stuff! I’d love to find analogs, to go on safari, and to find the people who might actually be interested in Honour and figure out why.

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Thank you for writing. I appreciate the flow of your writing. In fact, a specific part of your writing inspired me so much that I decided to visualize it. I hope that my visualization can inspire you once again.

build funnels “bottom-up

exercise in humility, empathy, and service.

You know I love the idea of Honour too, but it’s conceptually foreign to everyone.

These are artworks that visualize your quotes. They are in the order of each quote.

Thank you again.

From Sophie.

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Dear Andy,

I would like to thank you for your thoughtful consideration of Honor. Your ideas have inspired me to visualize quotes, which I believe will be a fun experiment. In fact, I have a specific visual idea based on your thoughts that I would like to share with you. As for the first <100 happy users>, the process was quite amusing. However, if you look closely, you will notice that not everyone in the picture is smiling(!)

I approached most of the work abstractly because I wanted there to be various possible interpretations.

100 happy users

see Honour as useful (2 art pieces)

we can make that first initial step slightly more seamless

Best regards,
Sophie

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These works are all incredibly beautiful, thank you Sophie :pray:

I will think about how they can be integrated into the ongoing work around this.

@salim can you say more about “pricing effort” and what you really mean by that + how it applies in your mind to Honour?

And I will be talking with Paul in the weeks to come, in person, about novel points systems and ARG viral mechanics.

We renamed Honour ZuCash for some hackathons at Zuzalu to start introducing people there to it in creative ways and got a lot of good feedback (mostly positive, some UI tweaks, some confusion or disinterest). I added more words about what’s happening in this repo.

We’re gonna be playing a lot with Austin and the buidlguidl after the suggestions above led to a series of calls with him. Really looking forward to that too, and will describe it further in a separate thread.

When two people use Honour, they have to consider how to value something between them, denominated in HON. That might be a commitment they’re taking, or the impact of a few words shared, or remuneration for effort expended. Projects like Coordinape and Praise overlap in the broader use case – scenarios where two people have to decide the “price” of something between them in a currency they spend differently. In termrs of “pricing effort” I meant that they specifically focus on agreeing a price for a specific effort that was made. (Effort as a resource, contrasted with capital.) I imagine they’ve tried a number of contexts, UIs, and use caes that might be informative to the broader cases relevant to Honour.

@Sophie Thank you for this! I’ve been admiring your work since you started on the Kernel Book, and it’s the first time my words have inspired illustration! (And honestly, I used to write a lot and gave it up.) There are some new Kernel events I’m working on now, and thought of you as inspiration as well!

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Thank you @salim that makes good sense. Taking that specific frame into any conversation with Coordinape could be very effective. I will contact Zach.

Two useful other analogs (although there are important differences between Honour and Circles esp) are:

  1. Scale-free money. I have spoken with Chris a few times and continue to.
  2. Circles. James will intro me to some of the people involved there. I know Kei and Stefan from Gnosis well, so can also contact Martin that way if need be.

Hi Andy,

I’m just stepping into this thread and I want to share a few thoughts. Firstly, I’ve really struggled with this same deep ideological resentment of marketing, but I’m also just starting to come round to a reframing (very much inspired by our conversations) that says “marketing” is simply making oneself legible to the world – sincerely – and that sometimes requires us to make ourselves legible in a way we aren’t used to/altogether comfortable with.

It’s precisely because you care so much about this work that you MUST be willing to make yourself legible in new ways, otherwise it’s too easy to dismiss as another one of those “harebrained ideas”. And it’s not. But the unfortunate paradox of this game we’re playing is that hard dirty worked done by humble people is often sidelined next to sophisticated abstract work that fits within existing paradigms of knowledge/learning. In this space, {ideas promoted} is not always well correlated with {embodied experience} and I love that groups like Kernel provide a place to “joyfully subvert” that.

Anyway, enough of that. +1 to everyone above who suggested you embed this into some kind of playful ritual.

I would love to chat more about this in Kenya. I’m here for the next two weeks with Grassroots Economics – pretty much trying to answer the same questions as you are* – and will also be at the IASC conference.

Blessings
Rebecca

*P.S having worked with GE, city3, and many many others doing some form of mutual credit, it strikes me that a) many of the people are so “on the ground” they don’t actually have time to talk to each other and b) I personally haven’t seen a unified message make it’s way into web3. There’s a broader question here about the usefulness of building [experiential, embodied] knowledge ecosystems/experiences for “niche” topics that we want to make less niche vs the tradeoff of just creating a lot of distracting noise, which is how I still characterize most of “ReFi”

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